Actually Windows Phone 8 Will Run on Windows NT Kernel

November 4, 2011 | By Matthew

We ran a piece a few days ago about Ms-Nerd’s assertion that Microsoft was not moving to Windows NT kernel as the basis for Windows Phone in WP8. He asserted that this had been talked about but it had been scrapped, especially due to the fact that Nokia is trying to drive windows phone into the mid and low range and the windows kernel has too much overhead for that work.

For non technical readers I believe I need to define what exactly is going on here. If Windows Phone 8 was to move to Windows NT kernel it would not change what the user sees. The phone interface could stay the same but the core of how it runs would change. I don’t want to go into more detail than that because my knowledge is limited, but it wouldn’t mean a change in the UI of windows phone.

Wmpoweruser has learned from sources very close to the matter that this is incorrect. Not only will Windows Phone 8 be based on the Windows NT Kernel, most of the work has already been completed. They are now approaching the third milestone for Apollo out of three total. What’s more regarding Ms-Nerd’s assertion that Win NT would have to much overhead for lower end chips; well this doesn’t seem to be true. What is actually the problem is that Win CE, which windows runs on right now, is nearing its limit on the newer chipsets in version 7 and windows phone is still running on version 6. Perhaps this is the real reason we haven’t seen any dual core Windows Phones.

What’s more this makes sense. Why do you think we haven’t seen NFC on Windows Phones and why hasn’t Microsoft allowed game engines like EPIC to run on Windows Phone? Why continue to add features to the Win CE kernel they are working with now when they are about to change it anyways? Native game development would become broken once kernels are switched out.

And for a final juicy rumor; our sources tell us that the July launch date for Apollo leaked by the Nokia executive at Nokia World isn’t too far fetched and both Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 are supposed to launch simultaneously. That’s very interesting.

About Matthew van de Crommert

My name is Matthew and I work in Healthcare IT in Silver Spring, Maryland. Currently own a Samsung Focus, a Zune Hd and an Xbox 360 with Kinect.

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http://www.facebook.com/todor.tsvetkov Todor Tsvetkov

Damn … we wait for Tango and we don’t know almost nothing for it and now we can’t wait for Apollo

http://twitter.com/mcrommert Matthew Crommert

Tango will be a very small update…nodo style…don’t hold your breath for it

Anonymous

Tango is for poor people like me, not for the mass, or just for the mass.
http://www.facebook.com/todor.tsvetkov Todor Tsvetkov

Well i know it’ll be small but I’m wishing for native Skype … that’s going to be big for me , but in my opinion NoDo improved the experience quite a lot and had fixed a lot of bugs so it wasn’t that minor

http://www.facebook.com/thegoldcobra Danny Camden Dodge

Good, because the only way is up for wp7/8, its an amazing OS but it still has a lot of unlocked potential to keep it ahead of the game.
http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5OA5RG3QEM76NSLGOPDL4HXUPA Darrell

Just think if MSFT had done this with Windows Mobile how that OS would be right now…

http://twitter.com/gibbyhome Mark Gibbs

I wonder who ran windows mobile ? I hope they are gone or fired, they never moved foward ..

Anonymous

I think the main problem with Windows Mobile is that MS did not try to control the UI experience.

http://fxfp.com/ Alex F.

Yay!
adam baker

this is fantastic news, Apollo being worked on heavily whilst we know we will get the Tango update before it. Microsoft will make me a very happy man if WP8 comes out around July-October time
http://www.facebook.com/Luffy07 Sergio Gonzalez

But will second gen Windows devices be able to upgrade to WP8?

http://www.facebook.com/maszangeneh Masoud Zangeneh

That is an important question because windows phone is not only for dual core chips !!!
The only problem with this picture is that whether or not NT Kernel can run on single core chips??

Anonymous

“The only problem with this picture is that whether or not NT Kernel can run on single core chips?? ”

is that a question?
http://davepermen.net davepermen

sure it can. the nt kernel is much older than dualcore hardware. 1995 or so?

or was xp not runnable on your nondualcore pentium4 or athlon cpu you had?
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=820830061 Rafael Muñoz

Think it twice
http://www.facebook.com/people/Milad-Bazzaz/100000479683479 Milad Bazzaz

haha lol.

http://www.facebook.com/todor.tsvetkov Todor Tsvetkov

I think somebody from MS stated that every device will upgrade to Apollo, further … unlikely.
http://twitter.com/eskeemo Kee

i guess even first-gen would be upgradable
Anonymous

I personally think they will support devices for 2 major iterations which would cover phones for 2-2.5 years roughly which for most people is plenty since they typically renew devices around that time. So all phones should get Apollo and maybe some small updates after that, but likely not the next major revision after. That’s just my take however with no factual info on the matter from any reliable source at this time.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Edelman/100002167002592 Joe Edelman

Very likely so; MS is interested in selling as many copies as possible and this is a easy way to sell more licenses of their software.

http://twitter.com/djcrumbley Daniel Crumbley

Now this is some serious news!! VERY EXCITING indeed! I was wondering why we didn’t have NFC. Great work Microsoft! No one is making imporvements/advancements as fast as you are! They actually care about what their customers want.
http://twitter.com/gibbyhome Mark Gibbs

there are alot of good things about running the same kernal as tablets and the pc 1 is that everyone will be working on, testing and making better the OS, for example the tablet team could make imporvements that would benifit the phone team and vice versa.. and the more people you have developing the better products you will get out of it, its a win win as long as the os on the phone is as fast and responsive at the os that they are running now with 7.5 mango..
Anonymous

can anyone explain the benifit of this? What can you do with NT Kernel? after the wooo thing, if you thing about it, what will you do, run photoshop on wp7?

http://www.facebook.com/todor.tsvetkov Todor Tsvetkov

One of the benefits is that OMs can put whatever CPU chip they like, so better cameras, 1080i/p videos faster loading, 720p resolution screens. And that is to name one benefit I’m not an expert but i think we will know more in the coming months

Anonymous

well that’s true. it will interesting to say see Microsoft having an restricted qualcomm chassis implementation, to an totally open kernel nt approach. Will be that way? Or microsoft will continue to restrict to an range of chassis? Will all optimization like gpu accelaration being handled via generic directx?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Milad-Bazzaz/100000479683479 Milad Bazzaz

Do you see a problem with Windows 8? I guess not. Hardware acceleration is not just something Microsoft developed for Windows Phone…it goes through all of their products.

http://davepermen.net davepermen

it has all the features of desktop windows. doesn’t mean you can run photoshop on it, but it would technically work (if your phone is x86 based hardware).
it means that they one-to-one can share code like their networking stack, their drivers, etc.

in the short term, it means just much more simple handling of everything for microsoft. in the longer term, it’ll mean feature parity on all devices.

so yes, maybe one day you will just plug your phone in at home, and it’ll scale up to the 24inch screen you have, and you can work with photoshop on the photos you made with your phone.

Anonymous

yes i can get it, that it’s easier to microsoft to have only 1 kernel, but what’s the appeal of having a docked phone? will you buy a new lcd, keyboard, mouse and dock? Or buy an ‘laptop dock’? Or just throw your pc away? When you need to make a call, or receive a call, what will you do? Take the phone from the dock? Will people on your home be able to use your portable computer phone when you are calling? I really thing this is an idea that its big in theory but fails on pratice… maybe i am just thinking small but i honestly dont thing its pratical. Everybody have an pc already. They have Photoshop on their pc’s.

http://davepermen.net davepermen

Yes, it is to replace my pc. As i do right now with the samsung windows 8 tablet. That in a dock is enough performance for me, and without the dock, it’s flexible on the go.

Next step is to have a windows 8 based phone, and thus your desktop everywhere on the go. it would be HUGE for businesses.

about performance: the NT kernel allows to plug in cpu’s while the os is running, so the docking of the future could provide additional cores, additional gpu power, etc. Just plug it in to get the full power, and everything on the go.

other than that, the NT kernel has bitlocker support, so the phones can get 100% encryption (something a lot of businesses want). it has, in win8, the new reset features with own images supported. again, something great on business phones.
domain support in the network stack, so your phones can connect properly. domain rules support => group policies for the phones.

everything you know and love from the power of a pc get, for free, onto phones. manageability, remote control, rules, and, yes, photoshop.

my pc died, btw, i haven’t thrown him away. but as i can get a tablet now with the same performance my pc had, tablet + docking == a nice alternative.

Anonymous

yes and when you receive a call, or just make an call, how do you do it? undock the phone? or the dock would have a separate ‘client phone’? If anyone someone wants to use your computer and you want to use your phone?
http://davepermen.net davepermen

I typically use speaker phone. or the headset, or what ever.
if someone wants to use my computer he has to ask anyways. Just as he/she has to, now.
but tomorrow, typically if one wants to “use my computer”, it means i undock my phone, and the person plugs in his/her phone. that’s more simple.

be a little creative there. ever used skype to call someone on a pc? why not use the same hw setup for a phone when on the pc?

would solve our expensive voip phones and headset special hardware needs at work, too.
http://davepermen.net davepermen

other solutions might be to not dock it, but have it plugged in with a wire. like when you get a call while charging it currently.
or maybe, wireless connections get good enough to even let the phone stay wirelessly connected to your screens. wireless hdmi transmition exists allready, and works on windows 7 in different setups.

Anonymous

Well if everyone has their own phone, or device, it won’t be much of a problem, will it? There’s no need to use “your phone.”

BTW I haven’t put the phone to my ear in quite a while (so need to undock it). Instead I use a bluetooth headset, and with a bluetooth enabled watch I get to see who’s calling. Newer devices, such as the WIMM One, i’m Watch, MotoACTV and similar, will put the basic stuff you need + controls on your wrist.

Possibly in the future, you won’t need to dock anything anyway, it’ll all be radios. The only thing you’ll need is a way of charging the device.

But maybe I’m just thinking big.

Anonymous

What I really would like to see is Multicore (inherent in Windows NT Kernel so a given), 720/1080P screen resolution, and standard NFC support. What I am hoping for is that MS will create a dual boot mode for Windows 9/WP9 where you can have a phone with quad core support that could boot to the appropriate OS depending on its profile. So when in a dock with a keyboard, mouse and external monitors attached, it would boot to Windows 9 and when undocked boots to WP9. I think it is coming and the future looks bright.

Anonymous

why do you need it to dual boot? If its the same kernel you could just switch UI when dock, the same way you can on windows 8 go to desktop from the start menu metro.

the thing what’s the appeal of having a docked phone? will you buy a new lcd, keyboard, mouse and dock or an ‘portable dock’? Or just throw your pc away? When you need to make a call, or receive a call, what will you do? Take the phone from the dock? Will people on your home be able to use your portable computer phone, when you are calling? I really thing this is an idea that its big in theory but fails on pratice…

Anonymous

The appeal of having a docked phone is that I can potentially replace my work pc with a dual booting windows phone. Enterprises would eat this up and it would push the adoption of Windows phone to mainstream enterprise users.

It would be nice to be able to switch shells, but I don’t know if it would be possible with the way Windows Phone and Windows 8 are being designed. We’ll know by the time Apollo is released.

Anonymous

and when you need to make a call? will you undock the pc/phone? do you think companies would make the pc company, your phone? really?

Avatar Roku

Docking is wireless. The internet connects through WiFi, the mouse & keyboard connect through Bluetooth, the monitor connects through WiDi or DLNA, and the phone is charged inductively. So what is the big deal about picking up your phone to make a call? If you need to work while you’re on the phone you could use the Bluetooth headset or speakerphone.
Anonymous

When I am sitting at my desk I have a headset that has a boom mic for me to answer phone calls on via usb hub (you could also use a bluetooth headset or a USB handset). We use Lync and Skype here at my office so we would easily be able to adapt to just taking a phone call with the click of a mouse. Yes. Really.

http://davepermen.net davepermen

why boot? just switch instantly. like i do with my laptop now when i dock it.

http://www.facebook.com/todor.tsvetkov Todor Tsvetkov

Damn … I wish they’ve made a preview version or smth like with Win8… what do you think if we could make a difference in the way that they remake the UI, the new features and so on, wouldn’t it be cool
Anonymous

can anyone explain the two kernels since matthew couldnt

http://twitter.com/mcrommert Matthew Crommert

Sorry if i wasn’t clear…Windows ce is what wp7 runs on…it isn’t real windows and it is limited in the scope of what it can do…it was designed for the days of very slow arm chips. win nt is what vista and 7 and now 8 is built on and now that there is an arm port windows phone 8 will also run on it. It has the ability for changes made to the windows kernel like nfc to come to windows 8 and windows phone 8 with no extra work

Anonymous

Describing CE as a kernel that was built for slow ARM chips is wrong. CPU performance doesn’t have much influence on the design of a kernel at all. CE was designed for absolute robustness (stable enough to use in medical devices) and to be very light on resource usage (runs well on systems with small memory configurations). The biggest difference is that Windows CE is a real-time kernel, whereas the normal Windows kernel is not. A real-time kernel behaves deterministically in the face of timing constraints (a certain operation will always take the same amount of time… not more, not less). Often real-time kernels are small and fast, but less comfortable to program for.

http://twitter.com/Zoomicon George Birbilis

1) don’t expect native game development soon in my opinion
2) Nokia is set to have dual core mobile on the works
3) vote for NT kernel too, CE was more modular, but work on Win8 and ARM and MinWin in the past show the way

Anonymous

I would very much expect native game development to come in apollo. Native game development is actually allowed today so long as you get your game in a carrier or OEM marketplace, which allow native code apps. I’d say there’s a 90% chance the WinRT framework will be supported in Windows Phone 8 and will being native code support along with it.

Anonymous

I’ll believe it when I see real confirmation from a real source, forgive me for my skepticism. This headline makes it sound like it will definitely be running the Win NT kernel when in fact it is still just a rumor based on a supposed “source close to the matter”. Hey if it turns out to be true then great, but at least make the headline more clear an accurate. That’s probably the one biggest gripe people on this site have. Misrepresenting headlines, it makes you look like you’re fishing for clicks.

Anonymous

Agree, but, this one is almost confirmed, just lack of official words. I don’t know for a fact, but Mary Jo Foley almost said that, she is a cautious person. Also I don’t doubt the logic in this post. There is something else support it: NT core is running on ARM right now; CES has showed a thumb sized motherboard, that is said to run Win8; Win8 is said componentized, that is the core is very small (MinWin), service compoments can be scaled down based on device type. There are a lot information from CES, people just ignored. I said this after CES: Window 8 will run on the phone. Window Phone 8 maynot exact Windows 8, they may very well share the core.

http://twitter.com/mcrommert Matthew Crommert

I have a very good source on this…but another example of something strange that supports this…why is there no encryption currently? Good answer that they aren’t bothering to do all that work when they can move to nt kernel which has encryption already

Anonymous

You don’t need some sketchy sources to tell that the CE 6 R3 kernel can’t handle more than 512 MB RAM or dual-core CPUs. It’s all documented.

Anonymous

well that’s for sure, everybody knew that wp8 would run either on CE7 or NT. The thing is what would will it be?

http://twitter.com/mcrommert Matthew Crommert

CE7 has a problem with multi cores also…that doesn’t solve the problem

Anonymous

And what problem is that exactly? Microsofts own documentation states CE 7 supports up to 250 cores and 3GB of RAM:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedded/en-us/evaluate/windows-embedded-compact-7-technical-specifications.aspx

http://twitter.com/mcrommert Matthew Crommert

I stand corrected…well they will still move to nt…embedded is more for…well embedded products not client pcs which is what windows phone is

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=820830061 Rafael Muñoz

So. Much. Fap.
Anonymous

This would be great news for a lot of reason. But before I jump up and down with joy, I need some more reassurance. How trusty are your sources WMPoweruser? Making this claim is no small matter.

Anonymous

I recall when it was first rumors the the next major update after Mango would be called “Apollo” it was leaked from the same sources that the update would involve porting the entire OS to the Windows 8 kernel, so it wouldn’t surprise me at all for this to be true.

Anonymous

Win8 + WP8 + NextBox? July could be a very expensive month for me

http://www.facebook.com/bfermanich Brad Fermanich

The NextBox, Xbox 720, or whatever it is isn’t coming out until Holiday 2013. Leaked news concerning the console stated that it won’t be coming out for another 2 years, unfortunately.

http://www.facebook.com/JEEtoP Chris Simmons

Surely this is kind of a given is it not? They can’t exactly leave Windows Phone out in the cold with all the work they are doing with Windows 8 and Xbox to unify the kernel.

With Windows Phone 8, Windows 8 and the new Xbox OS all connecting to Microsoft’s cloud services, they really are knocking on the door of the continuous client. Hard.
Anonymous

This whole “unified kernel” discussion has become worthless.

I know what a kernel is. I have implemented one. I also know that the term unification in this context could mean any number of things (interfaces, driver models, the actual code base). Does anybody here really know what they are talking about?

Something else to consider is Microsoft’s technical documentation for Windows CE 7. Microsoft states on their website that CE7 also has a unified kernel! Last I heard CE7 and Windows NT don’t share the same kernel, so what has been unified? Assuming WP8 is based on CE7, it would also be correct to state that WP8 has a unified kernel… whatever that would then mean…

To the author: get your source to precisely define “kernel unification”. Until then further discussion is simply embarrassing.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Milad-Bazzaz/100000479683479 Milad Bazzaz

It makes perfect sense…keep your fingers crossed…I think 2012 is a very big year for Microsoft.
http://twitter.com/counterblow the person

I seriously doubt any current phones will get to upgrade to WP8 though.
http://twitter.com/brianchau Brian Chau

I want HDMI out from the phone, NT kernel or not. And launching Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 together would be awesome. There would be huge coverage among the press and it would benefit Windows Phone sales.