Details on Windows Phone 8 confirms NT kernel

January 24, 2012 | By Surur

From a Russian smartphone forum we have some more information about Windows Phone 8, and if true it confirms the rumours that the Windows CE kernel is out, and the Windows 8 kernel in.

The excerpt from an unrevealed document states that Windows Phone 8 will achieve platform parity with Windows 8, saying:

"Windows Phone" Apollo "brings together platform parity with Windows 8, experience parity with Windows Phone "Mango", and a set of new features and functionality developed for Windows Phone "Apollo".

Platform parity means that the phone OS is now based on the Windows NT kernel instead of the Windows CE kernel. Windows Phone "Apollo" uses the Core System from Windows 8, which is a minimal Windows system that boots, manages its hardware and
resources, authenticates and communicates on a network, and can be managed at a basic level.

The post continues:

The final significant changes of note are the adoption of ESENT, also known as Jet, for the database engine, and the managed-code runtime. Rather than using the. NET Compact Framework from Windows Phone 7, Windows Phone "Apollo" uses the Core CLR
produced by the Developer Division at Microsoft. "

Having Windows 8 on your phone does not mean you will be able to run random applications. All binaries still need to be signed with a Microsoft certificate, according to the post.

The information sounds relatively authentic to me, and I wish more was revealed. However to me the odds of Windows Phone 8 running a version of the Windows 8 kernel, with all its associated implications, has just increased by 10.

See the post at 4pda.ru.

Thanks Roman for the tip.

About Surur

Site Admin and Windows Phone enthusiast, he has been using Windows Mobile devices since before they were called PocketPC’s. He is currently sporting a HTC 7 Trophy.

Tagged rumour, windows phone 8

Anonymous

I don’t want to sound stupid and I’m guessing that there are many advantages to this move, however, I would like to know what they are specifically. Does anybody know what this will allow? Or change in Windows Phone?

rsgx

While I’m only guessing, I’d say that this will bring more enterprise features in regards to security and such, and a lot more from what you’d expect from a PC.

Common kernels should allow greater common features between phones and full fledged PC’s.

I believe historically they would develop the NT kernels, and then build the CE kernels from bits of that. CE also doesn’t run dual-core+ processors as well as the NT kernel. So, it makes sense to unify the systems, as it will be less work for them down the road.

They’ve been working to ‘fix’ and slim-down the code of Windows from WinXP, and Win8 is light enough to run on low-spec PC’s. Should easily be able to run on the latest phone hardware IMO.

Anonymous

Interesting stuff. Didn’t know CE couldn’t run on Dual core but I guess it makes sense that Dual core is coming with Windows Phone 8. As long as they keep a small footprint I think this is pretty exciting stuff. Also this coinsides with Windows 8 and ARM.

rsgx

It can, it’s just that NT is far more optimized for it.

Less resources to move to NT than develop better support for CE alongside it.

Anonymous

@rsgx:disqus …Thanks for you insights! I’m not a techie at all, but your explanation was super great that even I could comprehend what you are explaining.

Thanks again

Anonymous

His explanation was also great for us kind-of-techie users. Very exciting stuff on the way for windows phone.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001748587994 Oliver Ulm

Not quite.

Windows CE has nothing in Common with Windows NT. It was always built for embedded systems with low resources. Next part would be that Windows Phone 7 is built upon Windows CE 6 with some parts of CE 7. While Windows CE 7 DOES support Multicore Processors (in fact the included IE Version of CE7 also supports Flash) it is far from the security feature support that the NT Kernel provides.

Where you are right is that instead of reinventing everything on top of CE7+ it is highly likely that it is easier to just use the NT Kernel or much more likely all of MinWin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MinWin). This still won’t mean that Desktop Software will be able to run on the phone as many of the services you find in the big brother will not be present (while on Windows 8 for Tablets they are there but dormant as soon as not needed).

Overall Microsoft has spent much more resources optimizing Desktop software like the NT-Kernel and the .Net CLR on the Desktop, so it’s pretty obvious that this should benefit the Phone in the form of possibly better or equal performance while allowing for lots of new and improved functionality.

rsgx

Like I said I’m certainly no expert on this.

They have been optimizing NT to use less resources over the years though, which is why it makes sense (to me) to transition over to it to grow the WP platform.

I wasn’t saying that desktop software would run on the phones, rather that it will share more of the desktop OS features.

MinWin does make a lot of sense though. Thanks for making it that clearer.

http://twitter.com/JeroMiya Jeremy Bell

I wouldn’t get your hopes up too much. Whatever they do, it’s going to have to run on the new low-end tango phones being released this summer. They have half the RAM of the current round of handsets, and if they switch to windows phone 8 they’ll have to have two runtimes in memory instead of just one, because they’ll have to support the legacy .net compact framework for existing apps to run (.net cf is NOT binary compatible with the full .net CLR).

Also, if you think about it, they’d have to rewrite the entire UI shell to target the new kernel. That’s probably going to take more time than the opollo time-frame would permit, unless they’re going to make a clean break and make it more like windows 8 than the current windows phone 7 shell.

rsgx

That’s not to say they didn’t start rewriting the UI shell for a new kernel a long time ago. I’m sure they had this road-map since the launch of Windows Phone itself.
Anonymous

“Also, if you think about it, they’d have to rewrite the entire UI shell to target the new kernel.”
Why would this be the case?
Anonymous

“net cf is NOT binary compatible with the full .net CLR”
I actually recall as of .net 4.0 i think, you can compile .net dlls that will work in both silverlight and in the full .net framework. I would certainly imagine it would be possible to engineer the full CLR on Windows Phone so that it can load and run apps than ran on the compact CLR. Could amount to a legacy mode.
Anonymous

I don’t see why that implies a rewrite. The UI shell is based on the silverlight stack, which runs on the NT kernel. It even runs on Macs. The silverlight team certainly did not rewrite silverlight for every platform, and the WP Silverlight team almost certainly wouldn’t have to.

Additionally, the kernel in and of itself isn’t going to consume large amounts of memory. It may consume more, but upper layers will be the major consumers of memory.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001748587994 Oliver Ulm

The App-UI is based on Silverlight, the actual OS-UI is Native Code and therefore much closer to what WinRT does. Given that first rumors about a switch to the NT kernel first appeared before Mango was released I still believe that it might be possible.

http://fxfp.com/ Alex F.

.NET Compact Framework is compatible with full .NET since versions 2.0 of both frameworks. You can literally run cf executables on desktop framework.
Anonymous

I think Windows Phone Tango will continue to be developed for lower-end/lower-mid range handsets, whilst Apollo will be targeted at true High-mid/Top–End handsets. Windows Phone Tango will be around for some time yet.

Anonymous

If the NT MinWin kernel was the desired kernel form the start, why did they build this on CE? Did they build WP7 on the Zune device source?

rsgx

Again, my guess, to get a product out as soon as possible. They probably didn’t have time to get a full product based on NT out, in time.
Anonymous

For one, Windows Phone 7 was based off Windows Mobile. The WinCE kernel and basic system libraries are just about the only things left from what I can tell.

For two, the NT Kernel was only just ported to ARM. I beleive Windows 7 embedded is the first NT kernel to run on arm but the Windows 8 Kernel is being heavily optimised for ARM and will likely be the first version of the NT Kernel suitable for these phones.

Anonymous

What I am most concern about are OEM drivers.

Does this means that Nokia, HTC, Samsung and other OEMs have to all rewrite the drivers for the NT kernel?

http://www.facebook.com/thomas.bundgaard Thomas Bundgaard

Most likely yes. I’m not sure how big the problem is though.

Anonymous

The biggest issue is that some OEMs may decide not to update the drivers, marking some older devices incompatible with the update.

http://twitter.com/Dee_Wreck Derek Evans

Exactly what I was wondering. All of the above is foreign to me, but I wanted to know…

…if opt for a Lumia 900 sometime mid 2012, will it be updated to WP8 when it is released? Judging by your post…maybe?

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001748587994 Oliver Ulm

There is no official statement by Microsoft on this but I guess if the Lumia 900 debuts in 2012 and Apollo arrives later in 2012 Microsoft can’t anger customers by leaving them behind once more.

Older devices like the 1st Generation Devices might be left behind due to the fact that OEMs might opt to not adapt their drivers and native code Apps.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001748587994 Oliver Ulm

If Microsoft does use the NT Kernel the drivers will have to be rewritten, as NT and CE use different driver models.
Anonymous

I gather it would, but i have no doubt that Microsoft is working with OEMs on this right now.

For mango microsoft forced samsung to update the camera drivers to acheive a framerate good enough for bing vision, so there’s some precedent for this.
rsgx

Hopefully, they’ve already started doing that and can push it out in the Apollo update to all their devices.

Wishful thinking, I know.

Anonymous

Hoping that WP8 will be more like WInmo (and Android) feature wise, with the UI and smoothness of WP7 .
I’m assuming with Dual/Quad core support, M$ will still have parameters as to what generation of Snapdragon processors OEM’s can use (Since each gen of Snapdragons share the same GPU, but just with different number of cores/clock speed) for the sake of app compatibility. Which kinda sucks because a Tegra powered WP8 device would be nice
Anonymous

The last thing I want is managing resources on my phone more features are great but I don’t want my phone like a PC I have tablets and ultrabooks for that.
Anonymous

its obvious windows phone 8 will run windows 8 kernel. the next xbox will also most likely run windows 8. The reason? so applications can be ported between devices by only making small modifications,such as to screen real estate, controls. windows phone 8 would also be capable of being backward compatible with windows phone 7 apps because the silverlight runtime would reside in memory,and the applauncher would hook whichever runtime based on the application type.
Anonymous

Your source is a Russian phone forum? Is that it? Who is their source? I hope its true but you need to back that shit up more before you post “Confirms” in your title.

Please forgive my crusade to restore responsible journalism.

http://profiles.google.com/philipcdj Philip De Jesus

You don’t need to apologize for righting the murky journalism these days. Keep on doing it.

As for the writer of this article (actually it’s more like a blog) please before saying CONFIRMED, cross check your reference. If you can’t rely on that reference, then slash the affirmative tone of your blog and just label this as “rumor”.

Anonymous

if this is true is meen one codebase for microsoft developers and one os running on multiplr platforms

this allso meens microsoft employee is out of work for manny people

pehaps that why shawn moved from the xna team to the phone team
i ges to see what the future holds
randy williams

Question if they are updating the kernel to NT would that mean that Microsoft and the OEMs would be able to use much better hardware that other competitors on other OSs would not be able to use? This would mean better features and resources for the battery and speed I know but really what is the real excitement about it other than syncing with any PC perfectly without any hassle. I guess this means that their will be a filing system or folder organizer in Apollo then.

http://profiles.google.com/wdmsagefire Robert Potter

It means a few things:
1) We might see x86 Windows Phone similar to how we are going to see x86 android phones this year
2) It’s easier to pull in NT features such as security settings and task management (including thread management for multi processing)
3) Lower aggregated cost for features shared between platforms

Means nothing about the file system. Windows phone HAS a filesystem, but it’s hidden from the user to prevent stupidity.

The ability to easily add a Windows Phone to a corporate domain could really help traction for the platforms in businesses though, especially if they couple that with strong exchange/lync coupling and finally provide that private storefront they promised before WP7 was even released.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Brian-Maziriri/1750283144 Brian Maziriri

if true this will be awesome
Anonymous

See my twi: https://twitter.com/#!/xDe11x

I share new info about Apollo.

rsgx

Nice, thanks!